Settlement activity makes Israel’s intentions clear

“The Palestinians and the Arab parties are coming to the negotiations in good faith”

Have all the Palestinian reps renounced violence, recognized Israel’s right to exist, and no longer call for Israel’s destruction?
Until that occurs, then their is no “good faith”. You cannot have it both ways.

For those of you who are unfamiliar with grf’s frequent postings on J, he is an unrepentent anti-Semite who believes in the “single state solution,” meaning-of course-the end of Israel.

Accordingly, it would be best not respond to this bigot and simply let him stew in his infantile crib of hate…

Incapable of intelligent reply, bereft in the face of an honest observation, Spitzer resorts to type and merely denigrates.

But that’s Danny all over again. His desperate need for a rigid ideology that will bring meaning to his impoverished existence renders him incapable of debate. But then again, that’s the entirety of such an ideology in the first place.

Nice revisionist history from grf—on par with his other postings about Israel.
I guess grf denies the fact that Hamas still calls for Israel’s destruction
Perhaps grf can read this link about Hamas:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

or he can watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEXQHqXmCRg
Where it is clearly stated—“No recognition of Israel, no peace with Israel and no negotiations with Israel.”

It is always interesting to see how Israel is always made the scapegoat for the problems in the Middle East
Dan Spitzer is correct—your attack on him is vile and irrelevant—as you are.

The first refuge of every ultra-nationalist scoundrel is to don the cloak of victimization and to attack all critics as vile bigots. Yes, poor innocent Israel, everyone is always picking on her. 

From the moment Hamas won the election that we and Israeli insisted they participate in they called for talks with Israel and a negotiated settlement on a two-state basis. They also stated that recognition of Israel would be left up to a later generation. But their call for talks and a negotiated settlement is in of itself defacto recognition, no matter what they choose to call it.

But it really doesn’t matter whether Hamas officially recognizes Israel or not because Israel would merely have made another demand and then another, just as they have done with the PLO. First, it was recognition of Israel. The PLO gave them that in 1988. Then it was recognition of Israel as a Jewish state. No doubt next it will all of the above plus an official apology for being Palestinian.

The Youtube video pretty much supports this argument. They are right to say they don’t need to officially recognize a state in order to make agreements with it. No one in history has had to before, so why now? We negotiated with both N.Korea and N.Vietnam while both wars were hot and without recognition of either. As far as Hamas in general goes: it is no different than the Irgun or the Stern Gang, and we ended up recognizing the leaders of both as the PMs of Israel. The Likud charter and the charter of several Israeli parties also claim all of the land between the river and the sea as Jewish patrimony. There are numerous gov’t website, including that for Aliyah, that feature maps displaying the entire area as Israel. I suppose that means that proudisraeli can’t even trust Israel and no one should negotiate with Israel.

“His name stands for grotesque reactionary fascist” and if you don’t give him the attendition his infantile anti-Semitic mind craves, then that loser will slide back under his anti-Semitic rock situated on David Duke’s ranch…

...aren’t you giving me the attention my “infantile anti-Semitic mind” craves?

We really must stop meeting this way. People will talk.

Thanks for a good laugh, grf.  You clearly have no clue about what goes on with N. Korea and what went on with North Vietnam, years ago—but mixing apples and oranges is a good way to try to make a bogus point (recognizing a country is very different from denying it’s right to exist).
BTW, everyone is picking on Israel—look what goes on regarding divestment and other issues—Israel is held to a different standard from any other country.
And if you think the failure of Hamas to recogninze Israel’s right to exist is not an issue, then you are truly out of it. We gave Gaza back to Hamas and were greeted with a daily bombardment of rockets until we had to put a stop to it and then we were condemned for doing it!!!
But, it is good that people like yourself, grf, continue to sing terrorist’s praises, while condemning Israel—it puts a local face on the hatred of Israel.

Marc, tell us again how anti-Semites like GRF will just go away if we ignore them?  Have they EVER just gone away? 

Stalling by deferring to a gossamer possibility just lets people like GRF pour garbage onto the discussion.  It is monopolized by their not-so-thinly-disguised anti-Semitic blather and the responses to it.

Whether anti-Semitism is correct and whether Jews have the same rights to a homeland as other peoples are not questions Jewish publications and discussions should be devoted to.

Notice the pattern here.  What starts as a discussion of the pros and cons of Mideast peace negotiation quickly descends to mutual insults and flame wars.

There is nothing novel in this.  That is the pattern of virtually all unmoderated sites.

The end-state of an unmoderated message board is the wall of a public bathroom.

Why is the staff of J so resistant to moderating out what is in effect vandalism of our community newspaper?  What is their reasoning and motive?

“Whether anti-Semitism is correct and whether Jews have the same rights” as all others has never been brought into question by me, as I am neither an anti-semite nor believe that Jews should be treated any differently than anyone else.

It is the ever narrowing limits of discussion and intolerance insisted upon by Kessler, Spitzer, and proudisraeli that devolve this forum into “insults and flame wars.”

Anytime anyone posts a critique of Israeli actions or policies in direct response to an JWeekly article one of the three will begin with the invective, the slander - all who stray from their narrowly prescribed margins are damned as anti-Semites and Jew haters. All else, including civility, is left by the wayside.

If I am so clueless I wish you would tell me what went on with N Korea and N. Vietnam, but I doubt if you can.

The divestment issue is not “picking on” Israel any more than the same was “picking on” South Africa. The divestment movement and all other such ad hoc attempts would disappear overnight if Israel began to obey international law and live up to the agreements she has signed and agreed to.

The only double-standard Israel is being held to is one insisted upon by Israel. Everyone else must stand to the letter and spirit of the law but Israel, who insists upon doing whatever she damn well pleases whenever it suits her fancy.

And Israel did not hand Gaza over to Hamas or the PA for that matter. What Israel did was merely redeploy her occupying troops to the borders. Gaza remains under occupation - legally and in reality, an overgrown concentration camp entirely illegal under international law.

Interesting that here in the US the Jewish defenders of Israel are always so quick with, and rigid concerning, this article of faith that Israel is always the victim, no matter what, and hold that any variance from that religious belief in anti-semitism.

Yet, in Israel proper much is openly discussed in the press, on radio and TV, that would send the Holy Three posting here (Kessler, Spitzer, and proudisraeli) into conniption fits of hatred.

“It is the ever narrowing limits of discussion and intolerance insisted upon by Kessler, Spitzer, and proudisraeli that devolve this forum into “insults and flame wars.” ‘
No is limiting your discussion, grf. You are free to write anything you want. i do not believe that there is any editing of your comments. I guess you feel criticism of your writings is the same as narrowing limits.

“The divestment issue is not “picking on” Israel any more than the same was “picking on” South Africa. “
Well, we are off to a good start—using the old technique of trying to compare SOuth Africa to Israel. What about divestment from China, given their deplorable human rights record? What about divestment from Sudan? How about divestment from Saudi Arabia? Funny, i do not hear divestment talk about any of the dictatorships in the world.

“And Israel did not hand Gaza over to Hamas or the PA for that matter.”
Well, they pulled out, which entails redeploying troops along the new border. There is no occupation of GAza any longer. Hamas could have acted like a good neighbor, instead they destroyed the greenhouses and started lobbing shells into Israel.

“an overgrown concentration camp entirely illegal under international law”
Here we go with the convenient comparison to the nazis.
BTW, how come you forget about Gaza’s other border? Why no complaints about Egypt closing it’s border with GAza. I could also point you to websites showing that things are not as bad in Gaza as you would have us believe. But that would be a waste of time.

“Yet, in Israel proper much is openly discussed in the press, on radio and TV, that would send the Holy Three posting here (Kessler, Spitzer, and proudisraeli) into conniption fits of hatred. “
Interesting how grf extrapolates our responses to his comments to us being ant-free speech or promoting hatred. Of course based on your above comments, then you must agree that Israel is a free democracy. I understand that Hamas still executes Palestinians that do not toe the line or dare to suggest talks with Israel.

It is clear that grf cannot stomach any disagreement with his position—anyone that dares to disagree with him, he claims that that person is calling him an anti-semite. I never used that term to describe grf.
Clearly grf is too thinned skinned. Maybe he should switch to a more sympathetic chat group—JVP or a pro-Hamas group.

Thanks again grf for another good laugh.

I do believe SA’s system of apartheid is comparable to Israel’s system of separateness. Israel even helped them set up their security apparatus, their arms industry, and their nuclear weapons program.

As to other countries worthy of boycott: this forum hasn’t really touched on other countries, nor should one be required to run through a list of all other such nations before discussing Israel, but I have no problem at all with a boycott on China for a wide number of reasons.

I know of no investments in the Sudan or products from the Sudan that one would be able to divest from or boycott, so it may well be a moot point.

Saudi Arabia oil, their only export that I can think of, goes into the world market undifferentiated, so you can’t tell who’s selling what from where. But if Proud Israeli wants to start a movement to divest from Saudi Arabia (Oil companies, etc. I suppose) for their rotten human rights record, their support of extreme and violent Islamist movements, then I’m all with him. Sign me up, pal. Where and when do we start?

Gaza is still legally considered to be under occupation. Israel controls the borders, the population registry, the air space, invades at will, and has set up a 300 meter deep kill zone extending into Gaza. Nazis aren’t the only ones to have concentration camps. And while it has been much repeated that the Gazans bulldozed the green houses I remember very distinctly that the Israelis did.

As for Egypt. It must first be said that the tri-party agreement calls for all goods to be shipped through Israel, so they’re not involved in the blockade. That said, Egypt is a corrupt dictatorship that doesn’t really give a damn about the Palestinians, any more than it has to in order to keep the population halfway calm. Hamas for them is the same as the Muslim Brotherhood, which is the opposition, so they are not keen on helping them out.

And while Hamas rockets are certainly a war crime, Israel’s equally indiscriminate attacks on Gaza sparked retaliation time and again. Both sides were playing the same idiot game, but with the Israelis able to produce far more destruction and death to an alarming and extremely disproportionate degree that amounted to collective punishment.

Frankly in the wider world outside of the immediate Israel-Palestine issue I see no dearth of criticism of the nations you’ve mentioned (and many others as well. You forgot Iran), for the very same reasons you’ve mentioned and more. Israel is not the only country being taken to task, its just the one a sizable number of people are focusing on for the moment. Just as South Africa was, and the southern US states. Were there worse places existing at the time? Sure, but that’s not how it works. There is no list that people work their way down. If there were Mississippi would still be a Jim Crow state.

Well all of grf’s comments can be dismissed since the facts have no place in his comments.

Three examples:
“I do believe SA’s system of apartheid is comparable to Israel’s system of separateness.”

But Israeli Arab’s have the same rights as jews—they can vote, they have members of parliment etc.  Did blacks have any rights in old SA? Claiming that Israel is an apartheid nation does not make it true (especially considering that all of the arab nations have enthnically cleansed all the jews).

“Gaza is still legally considered to be under occupation. Israel controls the borders”
Isarel controls the border of Gaza and Egypt? Interesting.

“And while it has been much repeated that the Gazans bulldozed the green houses I remember very distinctly that the Israelis did. “
This is an out and out lie (gee, what a surprise from grf!!!).
See link below:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9331863/
and
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2010/08/18/the_failure_of_the_gaza_pullout/

He argues against the apartheid comparison with, “But Israeli Arab’s have the same rights as jews—they can vote, they have members of parliment etc.”

They do not have the same rights as Jews - it’s a Jewish state remember? Israel is a state that privileges Jews above all its other citizens - and must in order to remain a Jewish state. It is segregated by religion/ethnicity on many levels and works actively to keep Jews in power and control, which by necessity requires discrimination and segregation.

proudisraeli’s hypocrisy is clear when one reflects that if tomorrow the US became a Christian state in the exact same manner that Israel is a Jewish one, and the Jews here became the “demographic threat” that Palestinians are considered in Israel, with all the attendant racism and discrimination he’d be screaming bloody murder about his rights. But he’s quite willing to force others to live under conditions he would never accept for himself.

Voting: When the ballot is cleansed beforehand against your interests your right to vote is effectively negated.

Article 7A of the Basic Laws of Israel:

A candidates’ list shall not participate in elections to the Knesset if its objects or actions, expressly or by implication, include one of the following:

(1) negation of the existence of the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people

This effectively blocks Palestinian-Israelis from voting in their own interest as the remedy to the issues pertinent to their interests (listed below) are always construed as implying the negation of Israel as Jewish state.

93% of the land in Israel proper is reserved for the sole use of Jews alone. No party is allowed even an attempt to remedy this by legislation. Thus Palestinians citizens cannot vote for their interests. Nor are any of the other issues below allowed a democratic solution.

Overwhelmingly, housing and communities are segregated in Israel. Palestinians are not allowed to buy property or rent in Jewish areas, which always receive far more state support and services. The Knesset just made this long-standing de facto practice a matter of standing law.

While since 1949 more than 2,000 communities have been built by the state for Jewish Israelis, not one has been been built for Palestinian-Israelis despite their population growth from 150,000 in 1949 to 1.5 million today. Nor has any Palestinian community been allowed to expand beyond its 1949 borders.

Palestinian communities are uniformly discriminated against in terms of parks, recreational facilities, city services.

Building permits are nearly impossible for Palestinians to acquire and homes built or expanded without are bulldozed. Jewish homes built or expanded without permits are not.

Hundreds of Palestinian-Israeli villages are officially “unrecognized” by Israel, which gives them no services at all, no paved roads, no schools, no garbage pick-up, no water, no gas, no electricity. Many of these villages predate the founding of Israel. There are no “unrecognized” Jewish villages in Israel.

From the Galilee, Negev, and East Jerusalem the Palestinians, Druse, and Bedouins are being cleansed, their homes confiscated and bulldozed. All this under the process Israel unfortunately terms “Judaization.”

Schools are nearly all segregated with the Palestinian ones second-rate and receiving the short end of the stick in funding, supplies, curriculum, facilities, etc.

Polls indicate overwhelming majorities of Jewish Israelis will not hire a Palestinian-Israeli, work for a Palestinian-Israeli boss, or live next door or in the same apartment block with a Palestinian-Israeli.

In all these regards Israel is comparable to South African apartheid and US Jim Crow. Are they exactly the same point by point? No, but neither were South African and US apartheid.

“Isarel [sic] controls the border of Gaza and Egypt? Interesting.”

If you had educated yourself you would know that under the 2005 agreement Israel does control the border there. Israel retains “oversight” over all persons passing from Gaza into Egypt. All goods, vehicles and trucks to and from Egypt must pass through the Israeli crossing at Kerem Shalom, under full Israeli supervision. At present Israel has closed all access to Egypt.

That said, as I alluded earlier Egypt could break the agreement, but legally and effectively Israel controls that border.

As far as the greenhouses go he’s right, I was wrong. The greenhouse were looted and damaged beyond repair by Palestinian criminals, although not an official act by the PA it is true Israel did not destroy them.

Yawn—grf—let me know when you come up with something new besides your usual “Israel is evil” spiel.
Funny how he has a problem with a candidate having to be against the destruction of the country he is running for office in. But that is grf for you.

proudisraeli is only demonstrative of the intellectual bankruptcy of the Zionist right-wing.

He (and they in general) can’t respond coherently to the truth, nor can he mount an argument. He dismisses all who do not follow his ever-narrowing path and can only sneer in his most ugly fashion. It’s the hallmark of an ideologue.

“Apartheid” is a legal term of art and describes a governmental system that has the intent of discriminating between its citizens based on “race.”  The Old South Africa expressed its intent to discriminate by law and in the enforcement of that law nor “apartheid”. “Apartheid”n does not mean simply “separate”, it requires an intent to discriminate.  In stark contrast, Israel ‘s intent both by law and by enforcement is premised on the real security needs of Israel. The use of the phrase “apartheid” as applied to Israel is simply false and libelous. When these folks use the phrase “settler” to describe Jewish people living in the “West Bank” (a name assigned by Jordanin1948 in place of the historic names of ”Judea and Samaria”) , it is also a politically loaded choice, when many of these Jewish “settlements”were established on land purchased by Jews and farmed before Israel’s 1948 declaration of independence such as Gush Etzion. “East” Jerusalem, similarly, only became a separate entity,“East” Jerusalem in 1948 when the Jordanian army expelled all of the Jews in the part that the Jordanians illegally occupied, desecrating 56 synagogues in the process.  It is apparent that the Western apologists for the Palestinians have selected their choice of vocabulary for its negative emotional impact on a naive audience, not to accurately describe the real situation.

“proudisraeli is only demonstrative of the intellectual bankruptcy of the Zionist right-wing.”
grf knows about intillectual bankruptcy from personal experience. Notice also the need to label people who disagree with him as “zionist right-wing”. It is all about labels with grf.

“He (and they in general) can’t respond coherently to the truth, nor can he mount an argument. He dismisses all who do not follow his ever-narrowing path and can only sneer in his most ugly fashion. It’s the hallmark of an ideologue.”
Boy , talk about being a drama queen!!!!  Why bother responding to falsehoods? grf just repeats them over and over—no point in trying to talk with him. My answers have been coherent—they have just not been in agreement with grf and that has him in a lather. By saying I am laughing at him—he claims I am sneering—you see another lie. A laugh is not a sneer!!! And finally we have his false description of what an idealogue is!!!
Boy I am sure laughing now